School Choice Kickoff: Jobs to Be Done

Jared Taylor: Welcome to the American Classroom podcast, where we discuss the role of education in building a civil society. We're lucky to be talking about this topic. Not a lot of people are covering this space but we are. And those that are listening, I'm Jared Taylor. I'm I'm excited to have Lindsay Crosland join me here today.

So thanks for being here.

Lindsey Crosland: Yeah. Good morning.

Jared Taylor: It's a beautiful day in Arizona where we're broadcasting from. And we're just lucky to talk about this topic, which is on the minds of a lot of people here today. So the topic we're going to cover is school choice. We're going to kick off a series of podcasts and we have some pretty exciting guests coming up.

Lindsey Crosland: Yeah, we have We'll have someone from National School Choice kind of perspective, State School Choice Denny Clark with Love Your School hopefully discuss micro school options according to today.

Jared Taylor: Yeah, I think Kelly Smith is we're lining him up and scheduling him CEO and founder Prenda.

So anyways, exciting, but we wanted to frame it up here a little bit because school choice puts Fear and trembling and a lot of people but it's very exciting in a lot of, in a lot of ways. And I don't know Lindsay, where you look for education content I would, I look at a lot of different places, but one place that I enjoy is real clear politics.

I don't know if you ever look at that, but it's it's not really right media or left media, aggregates at all and has the Paulina, if you're into the politics thing, but I noticed a couple of years ago they had a really good subsection on education. It's just aggregated all the major articles on the topic of education.

And then below that is a bunch of research of just the latest thinking of this, that, and the other that's published and I'm perusing on that. We stumbled or I stumbled across an article that we want to highlight today.

Lindsey Crosland: Yeah, I think when I think of school choice, as a parent and then working in school, I see what are options, right?

We can homeschool. We can go to the local district school. There's private school, private charter school, public charter school, micro schools, and I'm sure I'm missing some. So that's the landscape in Arizona and in other states it could be different.

Jared Taylor: When I was growing up, we only had one school and then you had some people, and it was the government school.

That was your local district school and that's what you went to and you liked it, kind of thing, right? The grumpy old man from Saturday Night Live, it's like, we liked it. I know my mom, she had done a little daycare and did a little joy school. Those are really fun. If you know the Ayer Family Joy School, that was percolating out in the eighties and nineties and still is today.

It's a wonderful system for people to pick up. But anyways, my mom was doing a little bit of I don't know. Probably more babysitting. And one of the little girls that she used to babysit just email me the other day, and she had started a little private school in Queen Creek. And she says, Hey, I want you to take you on a tour.

It's exciting. And anyways, I'm gonna go a couple weeks. So that's gonna be fun connection from the past. Yeah. But school choice is just exploding across the U. S. And There was an interesting article that I forwarded to you to say, let's talk about this and just tee up this whole series that we're going to be kicking off and it comes from let me get over to

Lindsey Crosland: Yeah so I'm a big fan of Clay Christensen and what he started and then the Christensen Institute is what it's called. Correct.

Jared Taylor: Yeah. And Clayton was, gosh, he just died a couple of years ago. I never got a chance to meet him, but I've read a lot of his things. Big fan.

Lindsey Crosland: I got to hear him in person too, which was at a tech conference. And that was really neat. And he'd already I have to just say this really quick. So he had already battled cancer probably twice and was not in great health, but was still sharp mind. And so it was everyone in the audience, 10, 000 people in the audience could feel the battle between this brilliant mind and the body that's, he's working with to be up there and speak on stage and he had the stool that he would sit on. But in that same conference there was magic Johnson that was all these big names. Guess who? A standing ovation from every single person. Oh wow. Mr. Christiansen.

Yeah. And so it's just, it was just, it was pretty incredible because his message and his delivery and he's such an amazing teacher and his content. So everything was there, even in this, poor health condition that he was in at the time.

Yeah, in fact, Michael Phelps was there at the exact same conference, and they had both of them come up on stage at the same time, and they had the exact same wingspan.

They had like back to back height, and then they were checking the wingspan. I can't remember, it was slightly different, but it was pretty impressive.

Jared Taylor: So those of you that don't know Dr. Clayton Christensen Harvard economist, PhD from Harvard, taught at Harvard Business School for, many years.

He was consistently ranked as number in the top five best thinkers in the world. So if you haven't got to know his writings or thinking, get to know him. He introduced into the business lexicon, the word disruption, the actual word he defined it. It means all kinds of crazy stuff now, but there's that. And he also brought in what's called jobs theory, which is where we're going here.

We're big fans. We got a couple of his books that were showcasing here. We'll link to them and he's not paying for this. We have no affiliation with Dr. Christensen or the Christensen Institute. We'll just say that right up front. We're just big fans. And we think that they're touching on something very important. That is something we need to do. And you know what? Michael Horn is carrying his banner now that he's passed. And we should probably see if he can come join us sometime.

So the Christiansen Institute along with a group called Vela and the Rewired Group published a document called Families on the New Frontier Mapping and Meeting the Growing Demand for Unconventional Schooling. I thought, oh, that's interesting. Maybe we should talk about that a little bit, and we're gonna tee this up here a little bit, but let's talk about his job theory real quick, because his job theory, he developed here in this book called Jobs to be Done, So if you want to learn how to do that, learn what the theory is and in your particular business how to apply it.

But he teased it up in this famous lecture he gave that's on YouTube. I encourage everybody to go do it. We should probably link to it in the show notes about the milkshake. The milkshake. And his group went out to some, they were, I don't know, some big fast food place like McDonald's.

Lindsey Crosland: It was McDonald's.

Jared Taylor: Was it McDonald's?

Lindsey Crosland: They were hired by McDonald's. Okay.

Jared Taylor: He didn't say it in the video. So thank you. To find out that they wanted to sell more milkshakes. And so they went out and they asked people, why do you buy a milkshake? And he goes on and I won't be the spoiler here, but that is an application of that, of what job does the milkshake do for you?

And it was such an interesting way that he framed the question.

Lindsey Crosland: And it was an example that everyone can relate to. Everybody either has, anyway, an aspect from a business or from a consumer standpoint. You can relate to his example. So I recommend watching it.

Jared Taylor: And he just challenges every business owner. Cause it also goes to the root of his theory of disruption. And of course his landmark book on that is called the innovators dilemma. Again, another brilliant book that's been out for gosh, probably more than 20 years now. And anyways, it's brilliant thinking, but they're applying this now to education.

Because parents are rethinking what is the job to be done here? Anyways, and is this school a B or C the school system doing the job that's needed and when I think of, Lindsay, you and I are the charter space to a big extent. And that's really how charters were invented, right? They, parents left district schools because they just didn't need all the stuff that they were supposedly giving.

All the service that was imposed on them by the government schools. And the government or district schools are good in many ways, but it was just too much for people and parents and their rethinking this.

So maybe we play a little game. Now that we know the basis of this and our listeners can tune in and learn a little bit more about jobs to be done. That's effectively as consumers of any product, whether it's a milkshake or a school parents ask, what job do I need this school to do?

Lindsey Crosland: Yeah. And a question to you is that is as the school, no matter what type of school you are, their job to be done. Is their only job to service the students or is it to service the parents?

Is it to service their teachers? So like from your perspective, are there multiple jobs there or is it just one audience?

Jared Taylor: Yeah, that's an interesting question because you'll get a different answer. My opinion, the customer of the school is the parent because their job is to educate their young children, right? And the home is first and the best school of all time. It's always going to be a school. But then they need supplementary help. And I think COVID exacerbated that or caused people to, it was a real catalyst for people to rethink what in the world am I paying taxes for, right? For the school to be shut down and for me to be told that I'm dumb and I don't know what I'm doing with my children.

And so I think there's a lot of so called PhD smart people that are out there thinking that they know better than what the parents know. And there's certainly a lot of background that they do have and experience that these people do have and bring. So a lot of different camps will look at that question differently.

I don't know. How would you respond to that if somebody asks you?

Lindsey Crosland: Yeah, I agree that different people would answer it differently, but I also agree that home is the first place for education. And so if you try to leave the parents out of that, and you don't think that as a, as an educational institution, that your job to be done is to work with the parents, I think you're missing out.

Jared Taylor: Yeah, I think a lot of school districts might think their job to be done is college and career readiness. That's really the narrative that Common Core brought in, a few years, quite a few years ago, probably almost 10 years ago now. And before that, the job to be done was to build character in young people, right?

And that's the whole battle between versus technical education. And that goes way back to Socrates, but that's a discussion for another day. But the whole question of what is the purpose of schools and the job to be done is super important. Of course, at American Classroom on this show, we argue that it's to build a civilist civil society.

And the best way to do that is to build up our young people and teach them the ideals and values of our country. And so we, we put that thesis forward and are developing that in our different series.

Lindsey Crosland: I think this article also touches on as we get into it that this is speaking to the parents who really are engaged and who want a choice and who wants the best fit for their student.

Recently a friend sent me a spreadsheet and they're like, what do you think? And it was their child's going into kindergarten and it was seven different schools and it was like pros and cons. There was all these columns saying distance from our home, tuition, no tuition scholarship options, all the financial stuff, he's a financial go through all the things.

And then it's are the teachers credentialed or the teacher's passionate, how did the tour go? Like he had all of these things to compare and contrast. And there was so much thought and research and it was just impressive because I went through my own, I probably didn't make a spreadsheet, but I went through my own internal selection process with choosing a school for each of my children.

And so I've been through that. And so I could relate to a lot of this article or this published study. And I, versus, I, when my parents were raising me, they were like, here's the school down the street. This is where you're going to go. And that was the only choice for them. And just, this really does speak to the parent who, has a choice and maybe what influences their choices.

Jared Taylor: That's good. Okay. Let's dig in. Let me just read the executive summary and then we'll just touch on a couple of the points and I encourage everybody to, take a look at it and read it and put in the comments. I think that you might agree or disagree from the article or what we say because we can all learn here.

Okay. Executive summary. Seismic shifts are shaking the landscape of K12 education. Public school districts across the US have lost over a million students since 2020. Meanwhile, novel educational models such as micro schools, hybrid homeschooling have more than doubled their enrollments. Okay. So they look at that and it's true over a million.

I think I saw the statistic about 1. 2 million maybe left during COVID and only 250, 000 of those actually returned to charter schools. And then there was another big chunk that went to district schools, but there was a huge amount. To those kids? If it's not there But parents were really like, why are we doing this again? You know, they really thought about it.

Lindsey Crosland: Right, those numbers speak to a large exit.

Jared Taylor: And it's not that the parents gave up on education They still want their children to be educated. Here are three jobs, I will read it and I want to hear your thoughts on it

When I disagree with decisions at my child's school, I'm feeling unheard. Help me find an alternative that will honor my perspective and values. First thoughts?

Lindsey Crosland: Yeah, there, there's more to that, right? How much work is the parent doing in their conversation? And I don't want to call it compromise, but like how much conversation is happening with the school. If they're just like, I don't feel heard, I'm out, that's their choice. But what kind of work was done to come up with some resolution before the exit?

Yeah. What do you think?

Jared Taylor: Yeah. And I'll just read it again. When I disagree with decisions at my child's school, I'm feeling unheard. And, I think that's more common in bigger schools when you have just blunt instruments in large schools and you're, it's a shut up and color kind of mindset in this particular school.

I don't think the administrators mean to be like that, but they just have to because they're just overwhelmed with the numbers. They and so people just get lost. The scholars, the students get lost, the parents get lost, and some are fine with it. But others, want to say and they want influence.

So I think that points to some of the trends here. When we talk about micro schools, we're talking about smaller schools, right? We're not talking about big box comprehensive, junior highs or high schools. So I think that's a big thing is they want to be more engaged, but they're being told, we got this, right?

Where are the experts?

Lindsey Crosland: And I can relate to that. As a parent, I felt unheard by my child's school. So, yeah, I can relate to that.

Jared Taylor: Help me find an alternative that will honor my perspective and values. I think that touches on something with school choice that people need to hear. Like that spreadsheet example, that's a great story, right?

I would also hope that they would have a spreadsheet on their child. How do they learn and what are the kinds of friends that, that they wanttheir children to be surrounded by or culture environment, right? Because there's some that cater to stem. There's other that catered to the arts or literacy or things like that and what, so we, I think this whole thing of school choice gets a lot simpler when parents really understand their children and what helps them to flourish and what would challenge them.

Lindsey Crosland: Right and that was my only feedback was that you know your child best, do they learn better in a Montessori style, environment. They learn better and you sit at the desk most of the day environment, kindergartners don't sit great, but like it's just a different educational model.

Jared Taylor: And sometimes those change, as the children grow up and things like that. But, okay, let me give you the second one here and I'll read it twice here.

When my child is unhappy, unsafe, or struggling at school, help me find an environment where they can regain their love for learning. So they're couching this to the school saying what school or how are you going to help me help my child feel safe happy and successful in school. You and I've talked about safe and friendships and things like that, but initial thoughts,

Lindsey Crosland: That's huge for me, for a child, it says regain. So as we're at number three already, if their child's lost their love of learning. They're making a switch, right? So to regain love of learning is huge. And yeah, I understand that feeling. So that's a big one.

Jared Taylor: Parents should know, a lot of them do, but a lot of them don't. You can go do research on schools.

You can go take a tour. You can interview the principal. You can talk to teachers. The schools are more accessible now. And a school that is not accessible like that's a red flag. If schools don't open up, now, of course you have to, go when there's, schedule it. It's not like you can run roughshod and whenever you want, but go see what's going on out there and see if that's a place that your child will flourish and thrive in.

Lindsey Crosland: I do. I've had a negative experience with trying to tour a school. And they were very like, oh no, you can only come step foot on our campus. If you're on a wait list, like once you've gotten, top three on the wait list, move your way up, then only you can come to where your child can't. And then once you're completely enrolled, then your child can come see the campus.

And that really bothered me, but I still went through the process anyway, just to see and ended up being not a good feeling and not a good fit. I saw potential, but the process really rubbed me wrong. And eventually it just wasn't a good fit.

Jared Taylor: I get schools have, they're short staffed and they just can't accommodate everybody's schedule, drop everything and go.

Lindsey Crosland: Which is why, yeah, which is why I was like, okay, I understand like a smaller school limited time, but I believe that my child should have been part of that decision process and for me to not make that completely on my own and then just say, this is where you're going to school which I could have done, but I wanted him to be part of that process.

And so that's, I think why it was a little bit of a turnoff to not be able to bring him along on the tour.

Jared Taylor: Lindsey, we're affiliated with Heritage Academy and their system and one common theme I hear from parents that tour our schools is the word happy. And that makes me happy, right?

And it's interesting he puts unhappy here, unsafe, struggling at school, because that's a big deal. And it's interesting they use that language. It must have resonated in their analysis as well, as they want their children to be happy, right? Because emotional well being is a big deal with our young people, especially post COVID.

Of course, school safety, we've talked about that already. We're going to continue to talk about school safety. If you don't have a school environment where young people feel safe, you're a dead letter. That is a tough environment. And if school leaders are listening to this, do an audit on your school safety.

Talk to your parents and how well they feel and, maybe you're doing great. A lot of schools are safe environments and they should be congratulated and there's some that can improve. There's, your parents will tell you they're your secret to success.

Okay, let's go to number three. When my child's school is too focused on academic milestones and neglects other forms of learning, help me find a balanced educational experience for my child. Initial thoughts.

Lindsey Crosland: Balanced educational experience. So you just mentioned the happy factor, right? And I think a child's It's so important that they're happy that they feel safe and that they enjoy it.

So sometimes just having one friend one friend on campus or in their class or depending on the grade that they can connect with they can hang out with at recess or walk to class with that's huge and then to enjoy their teachers and know their teachers want them to be successful and they feel that Those I think are two huge components.

So just a kid feeling happy in school and wanting to go every morning when you wake them up, whether they're like happy to get ready or be like so I think that is the balance. And then we can talk about the part of the question.

Jared Taylor: When George Bush, so 43, so the second Bush was in his secretary of education was I think Rodney Page and they pushed forward. No child left behind. That was a huge step in federalizing education with that NCLB initiative. And it made high stakes testing a requirement across the union. If you're going to take federal funding, right? So in Arizona, we saw you couldn't pass third grade unless you pass the high stakes test. And you couldn't graduate unless you passed it at 10th grade.

That was in CLB. And it brought in a lot of technical education and it brought a lot of requirements for teacher qualification, the whole language about highly qualified teacher came in. It really, Republicans want accountability thrown in the schools and Democrats want more money thrown in the schools.

That's basically education politics right there. I know I'm oversimplifying it, but 43 was in office. And that's what came in, is a huge accountability measure. When President Obama was elected, he, his last thing was basically throwing NCLB out. And he brought in ESSA, which is effectively a renewal of what I believe it was President Kennedy or President Ford that brought forward in like the 70s.

And he lightened it up, but he, but President Obama got rid of a whole lot ofaccountability measures that that come from federal government. So he didn't have the but NCLB hardened the public education, into academic milestones and I That might sound good for government bureaucrats in Washington, but for parents it's not that important.

Yes, they want their children to be academically proficient. And I'm soapboxing here a little bit, I apologize for that. But the it's not as important as their children's love for learning. And the teaching to the test, and the obsession with high stakes testing and standardized based curriculum is.

This has shown be a big waste of time and a huge waste of money, it hasn't moved the dial on academic scores. Any honest person will have to admit that when you look at the results across the union and this is from parents saying, it's really not that important. So let's figure this out, but, and how many children do you know need to have a little mix in their day?

if it's all math and science. Or, history and English without the arts or without some athletics to get the wiggles out, right?

Lindsey Crosland: It's really hard for a kid.

Jared Taylor: Yeah, you have a son, you have a daughter, they need to move a little bit. I've got three daughters and they need to move a little bit.

Lindsey Crosland: Right? And my son needs to move and my daughter needs to move to just be able to reset and focus and sit down and learn again. And, in a science lab, get up and do something hands on. I think that's so important. And so tied to that is that if we're missing, if we're not encouraging kids to be curious and, engaged learners and wanting to learn about things and just saying, sit down and I'm going to tell you what you need to know.

Jared Taylor: Shut up and color, shut up and color.

That's a new education model. That's what NCLB brought in. I know that's an oversimplification, but this whole idea, what's the first thing that comes to your mind when it says help me find a balanced educational experience for my child? And what does balanced mean to you?

Lindsey Crosland: I think balanced means a mix of extracurriculars, the main academic courses, and then I think also balanced in the way that they are able to learn.

Even if it's math, maybe it's a hands on, maybe it's manipulatives,

Jared Taylor: So it reminds me of a story in college. I took a class on jazz studies. I had to get some silly general elective, and I love jazz. And so I took this Jazz in America course. Anyways, the teacher was so excited 'cause he came across a study that says, Hey, your test scores go up if you do your homework while you're listening to Jazz

I never saw the study. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. I don't know. My scores go up when I do.

Lindsey Crosland: Did you listen to Jazz?

Jared Taylor: Give me a good Miles Davis album and I'm a happy guy. But the the point about balanced education, right? Someone that needs music. I've got my youngest daughter. She would die if she could not take a music class.

She just has to have music. And there's other people that are the same effect with athletics or things like that.

Lindsey Crosland: Be able to draw in the art class.

Jared Taylor: Yeah, it breaks it up and I believe I really do believe that arts and athletic does help you clear the mind and be better at math and be better at English And I think that's part of what it is and balanced education means different things for different people.

Lindsey Crosland: And I also feel like it helps to develop a more well rounded, we talked about character development We're more around a child.

So I Whether it's a photography class or, something that you're looking forward to learning and engaging in, even like through college. I didn't just take my core classes. I threw in, outdoor survival and social issues of human, social issues of human genetics and just things that maybe weren't an exact requirement, but I could throw in there. And, yeah, I just kept my day exciting.

Jared Taylor: Yeah, something to look forward to. Years ago, I think it was the New York Times somebody who can probably, in the comments of this can do the reference, but someone, during the whole NCLB, academic, rigoring the hardening, of education that NCLB brought in, there was a person that was arguing for the Asian academic model.

And they go to South Korea's test scores internationally on the, the Pisa tests are just off the charts. They're great. They typically are in the top one or two. I think there's a Nordic country that's always up there as well. But anyways, they were arguing about the Asia tiger model of education, going to school for six days and, probably eight hours per day.

And there was someone there was a Jewish mom from New York that wasn't having it. And so she argued for some other things and it, that just brought up the whole thing of hey, that what's good for you isn't good for me. because the other person that countered and wrote the counter argument was just reinforcing what we know, which is one size fits one, right?

And education choice is here. It's here to stay. And the more we can be educated about the choices for our children and what's best for them, I think is only gonna help everybody.

So I'm excited to launch this. I'm excited to bring in some guests and learn more. And, anyways, what do you want to, what do you wanna say?

You get the last word here before we wrap up.

Lindsey Crosland: Oh, I just think I'm excited to talk about school choice and bring our different guests in. I feel like as parents, we know what the best learning model for a child is gonna be. Even as they go through school, they learn. My son he was listening to, we were listening to this homeschooler talk about her experience.

And I haven't home, I haven't homeschooled my children, but she was saying that she got all of her work done in the morning and then played the rest of the day. And my son turned to me and he's I think that's how learning is supposed to be done. And I don't know if he was analyzing that for all children, or he's a fifth grader, right?

Or himself, like he's a checklist kid. If I could have just gotten all my work done and then play the rest of the day, that sounds fantastic. And it sounds pretty, what's wrong with that? Yeah, pretty true. So I think he would have done really great if I could have homeschooled him. But yeah, I just love that there's so many choices and that we have the choices here in Arizona. I know a lot of states don't have that ability as parents. So grateful to have this discussion.

Jared Taylor: We're lucky to have that. Thank you for the conversation. I look forward to learning more about this. Looking forward to comments from the listeners on this. If you like what you heard today, please rate us and review wherever you get your podcasts and we'd love for you to like, share what we got going on here.

And thanks again. Have a great day.

Lindsey Crosland: Thank you.